The_FD

Well I was just suggesting that law could be considered as a tool for justice, which would finally act as an argument (like: "the law says ... thus your condamnation will be...). Moreover that may help courts of law to legitimize their judgments.

hmmm can you get it better now?

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Nadine

I think that is quite logical. Judgments are based on laws and jurisprudence. I don't think a judge can pronounce a more severe punishment than foreseen by the law on the subject. If he does, the judge in appeal court will change the sentence, anyway. And then there is still the European court.
It does happen a judge decides differently, (which is called a "precedent" I believe) and if many judges follow his point of view (judgement based on jurisprudence) the law itself will be adapted after a certain period.

That's the way it works in all of the European countries I believe. Doesn't it ?

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The_FD

despite I am not a specialist at all that's what I guess

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Lina

Waow ! I disappear one night and I find all this already quite developped...!

Sorry to take it a little back, but if law provides for extenuating circumstances, can we say that to take them into account or not really comes from the judge's being merciful ? For he doesn't have to be merciful, then, but "only" to be objective and fair. There aren't necessarily feelings here. Or are there ?

And as for law's trying to create a better world, I'm sorry, but if there is one thing in the world which considers that men are bad by nature, this is the legal code, for it systematically anticipates murders, thefts, rapes,...etc. Law is here to help society to go on, not to improve it, or there wouldn't be laws, for men would be considered good by definition and, thus, wouldn't need them.

The_FD

that's a point of view... but I am not sure laws anticipate murders or any illegal act... don't human and/or society create laws depending on their needs of the moment? That's is a reaction and not an anticipation (let's take the example of illegal internet downlaoding in France for example).
Moreover this brings us back to a so old question and controversy. Does the Law increase or decrease liberty, and what's an increased (or decreased) liberty?
The Law is here to help society (that's a tool, as I was trying to explain before ) AND it improve the society as well. Both phenomenon are not opposite I think.

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Lina

I don't think that whether law came before or after crimes happened is a problem, for it considers that they are very likely to happen again. If it didn't anticipate them at all, the former crimes would have been thought exceptions and not expected at all to occur another time.

Moreover, to provide for sentences shows well that law doesn't try to improve society, for it takes into account that people will obey it only for fear they might be punished. In Plato, there is the myth of a shepherd called Gyges, who's quite obedient, until he finds a ring which allows him to be invisible ; when he realizes this, he kills the king, marry his wife and becomes a king himself, with complete impunity. I aggree that law is made to help society but I think that what really tries to improve mankind is morals, for it internalizes rules and punishment so that men don't need to be looked after anymore.

The question of increasing or not men's liberty may be then a question of trust in their morality. We don't always need laws to behave as we must.

The_FD

I agree with this, but isn't the Law part of morals? (Even though I keep in mind the difference between those two things you have been explaining pretty well before )

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