ferenk

Your gradation in 4 levels is very clear and complete. But...but you tend to mix up the meanings of think/know and believe. Indeed, I believe what I don't know since believing means accepting without any proof. Either I believe (but I have to keep it for me, as I cannot prouve anything to someone else), or I know that God exists. The problem is then that the fourth level, the one in which I experiment God's being, cannot be different that an absolutely personal one. In every case, knowing that God is and that It's not is the same...

I_notGenerous

Ferenk and Moon Dancer and Hii All,

I think its very clear that God exists. His existence is manifested by his creations very beautifully, intelligently done and well arranged the atmosphere and the solar system; beautiful, sophisticated Planets and earth.

Obviously, we cannot think how God exists, how the solar system is well arranged and working universely.

Its like working and playing with words puzzle and match it together. Find the knowledge, seek and resolved the solutions accordingly to many theories of religions eg, holy books revelation of Old orthodox of Christianity, Islam and Jews.

Just pray to Him and ask for enlightenment, surely you will find what you are looking for.

Just think that a nucleas exists in a cell, how does a cell exist? From a cell, becomes a tissue, a tissue to an organ, an organ to a structure.

This cell is intelligently crafted, think about it. You are intelligently crafted and beautiful. Thank you to the almighty that has created you beautifully and and dignified you as the highest rank in his creations. Subhanallah...meaning Glory be to Him.

ferenk

Well, your faith is noble, and cannot be mocked. But precisely, it's a faith, and it has no proof. For example : if the world was not so organised, it could not last. No need of any God there. And what about the continuous chaos in the world and between human beings (climate, earthquakes, wars, and so on). Is God as awful as Its creatures? I don't know if God exists, but I hope It doesn't...

ferenk

I like our discussion on metaphysics, and I'd like to go on. But what about political philosophy in the same time?

moon_dancer_withU

Hello again Ferenk, I_notGenerous and all passing byes,

So where were we? Ah, there it is... you were saying, Ferenk:

Well, that's just it. I don't think that one can believe in God and doubt of His existence at the same time. It's either one or the other at a given moment in time.
One may, however, doubt at first, believe afterwards, doubt again; or, initially believe, then doubt and so on. And this may be looked upon, indeed, as a succession of psychological phenomena.
So, I guess that if you doubt upon God's existence you cannot believe in Him. That is, if I understood correctly the meaning of your question.

Otherwise, speaking for myself, I do seize a delicate difference between beliving in the existence of God and actually knowing that He exists.
Ultimately, faith probably "lies in the eyes of the beholder" and, certainly, the relation between man and God is a very personal one.

I_notGenerous: for some, the existence of God is plainly visible and needs no argumentation, while for others it is a matter that needs to be discussed, demonstrated or dismissed. There's nothing wrong with any of this. If God would have ment to be known by all, this situation simply wouldn't exist. There would be no veils between God's Face and His creation.

The kind of funny thing is that both "parties", belivers and non-belivers, think that they are right and that they see something that others don't. Therefore, trying to convince any of them of the opposite seems to be a futile enterprise.
The process of reaching a convinction in the existence or the inexistence of God is, I'm sure, a very personal journey. It could be a beautiful journey, or a very painful one.

ferenk

May I say that I firmly disagree with you, Moon? On one hand, you put at the same level the believers and the unbelievers : but you can't compare faith and reason. I mean, the second one is, by nature, shared and universal. So it has to be, by nature, discussed. Whereas faith is, as you say, a "personal relationship to God", and then too intimate and private to be explained. Is one then condemned to stay alone in front of God? I don't think so. Let's take an example : my vision "m'est propre, et je ne peux la communiquer à autrui". But my reason can describe and explain what I see. Why shouldn't it be the same with God? On the second hand, you seem to admit the religious relationship as a "fondement", and then describe it as difficult or easy. But how can you suppose what you just have to proove? (I hope I'm not agressive, it's just the warm of philosophic discussion - by the way, please all of you excuse my limited English...)

I_notGenerous

"Mankind in our century is looking for the light of true faith; for his thoughts are submerged in the complex and insoluble problems of materialistic philosophy; his mind has become darkened with the clouds of doubt, his heart has been wounded with the needles and aimless way of life inspired by the vicious aspect of today's civilisation;he is unaware of the purpose for which he and the cosmos have been created"

Can you feel the sadness? Can you feel happiness? Can you feel what you want to feel? Do you feel arrogant? Can you describe arrogance? What else are you feeling now? Do you know yourself? Tell me more...I appreciate your frankness....thank you.