What does the Danish/Norwegian words "Saligheds Sag" mean? - Page 2

cybershark5886 · 10-04-2006, 03:36 PM

Oh, I'm sorry, did you mean me to check these two sentences?
In any case, this is what I'd make of them...

No those weren't the sentances I was talking about, but thank you! That helps. I apologize for not posting what I meant yet, but the text in question is at my grandmothers house. I hope to get it this weekend.

Our family is of Norwegian ancestory (we now live in Alabama, USA) and we have a valuable family heirloom (a book) that is a Norwegian Christian text book. The date at the back of it says 1758 (and it looks the part)! And since it is so old it falls under a period when Norway's written language was Danish, so it's a Norwegian text written in Danish (I think historians call this Dano-Norwegian). I'm trying to continue on our family heritige and culture a bit by attempting to learn the Norwegian and Danish languages so that I can translate the book. I plan to make scans of the pages eventually. From what I can tell the book is divided into what seems like daily sermons, and appears to be the work of an educated Theologian and Scholar. I wish I could find the authors name, surely he is recorded in history books for such a literary work.

At any rate, I'll try to get the text soon. Sorry for any delay.

Oh and that interpretation of it meaning "sacred mission" seems to fit the context well does it not?

[I guess your text said "den korsfæstede" ?]

It's interesting that you point this out because in the text it really was a "G". In the archaic Dano-Norwegian text that I will copy a few lines of here (when I get to the book) you will possibly see a "transposition" of letters like that, because of the word's older/archaic form.

Sincerely,

Josh

La Tigrette · 10-04-2006, 04:43 PM

Hi Josh,

As a former student of Scandinavian studies, your family history sounds particularly interesting to me. Especially, since I attended classes on Norwegian litterature and Old Norse during the last semester. I'm really looking forward to you posting that text, and I hope I'll be able to help you translating it, in spite of my ignorance of religious vocabulary.

Blue Skies,
Tigrette

thstich · 10-04-2006, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybershark5886

That's an interesting possibility. Have you read any Christian texts before that might have given you this impression?

The religious group "indre mission" stills exist in denmark and members are living according to their religious (no drinking for example). They are not "fanatics", but have a strong faifth compared to average lutherian christian .
If someone decided to put in question some of their ways, it could be formulated in the way you mentioned. .... but danish (or norwegian) are not my mother tongue, so it might be worth looking at the rest of the context.

cybershark5886 · 10-09-2006, 05:23 PM

Hey,

Sorry again for the delay. My grandmother took a picture of the first page, and I can e-mail the .jpg file to you if you would like to look at it.

Before I type the words here though I found a possible secondary meaning in an alternate context. At this site: (RootsWeb: NOR-TELEMARK-L Re: translation please: deris salighedt sag) this person interprets it as a funeral service. At the URL (Selands-Slekta FILE: ss 09.htm) right below the "Page 70" mark where it says "da hjemhente præsten til hendes saligheds sags betjening ligesom efter døden bekoste". Betjening I think means "service" - perhaps a church service. Does that fit in with a "funeral" interpretation?

But before I get too far off on that interpretation here is a Danish word-reference entry for salig & saligheds:

salig adj blessed;
(lyksalig) blissful;
(beruset) exhilarated;
[salig fryd] bliss;
[blive salig]
(religiøst) be saved;
[min salig mand]
(glds) my poor husband.
saliggørelse (en) salvation.
saliggørende adj saving;
[det er det eneste saliggørende] it is absolutely the only thing.
salighed (en) salvation;
(lykke) bliss;
(beruselse) exhilaration;
[nej min salighed om jeg gør] I'll be hanged if I do;
[saligheds ed] (Bible) oath ( fx I will take my Bible oath on that).

On this PDF ( http://www.kirkenikobenhavn.dk/uploa...20saligheds%22 ) I got a little bit closer to someone actually telling me what the word means, but since I'm I only know 50 Norsk/Dansk words I couldn't interpret the context.

The text said at the end of a paragraph: Det er, hvad de gamle kaldte, en saligheds sag.

(It is, what old folk called, a saligheds sag)

If you can interpret the context tell me.

-------------------------------------------------------

Now (finally) here is the first few words from the text:

En liden Bøn, som Eenhver kand læse for sig selv, før han begynder at læse eller høre Prædiken, som paaminder os om vor egen Uduelighed i vor Saligheds Sag: og om Guds store Magt, til at giøre os duelige til alt Godt.

Note for when you see the picture: I's can be sustituted for J's (for example giøre above would be modern gjøre), lowercase S's are the archaic 'f' shaped letter, lowercase K's look like an 'f' with a dot over the right cross section (kand above looked more like fand), and capital S's almost look like capital G's. K was the hardest one for me to figure out.

My translation of the text so far:

A little prayer, which each can read for one's self, before he begins to read or hear the message [exhortation], which reminds us of our own inaptitude [innability] in our Saligheds Sag: and God's big [Magesty?], to.....

**Following that paragraph is the introductory prayer before the author begins his Scholarly expository work. You will be able to see it in the picture.

Whoever would like the image (actually there are 2 images - top & bottom) please give me your e-mail address. It's exciting to look at because it just looks so old...

thstich · 10-09-2006, 07:27 PM

i would translate "læse eller høre Prædiken"
by "to read or hear the preach" ...

Gud stor magt : God's great power, which makes us good at, "doing good".

La Tigrette · 10-13-2006, 10:44 PM

Hi cybershark 5886,

Apart from a few words my translation agrees with yours, only I'd make "the sermon" of "Prædiken" and "our own incapability" of "vor egen Uduelighed". The final part seems a bit tricky to me, too. Literally, "...og om Guds store Magt, til at giøre os duelige til alt Godt." means "...and of God's great power to make us capable of all Good." but I can't tell if this means that
a) God enables us to do good and be good
or b) God provides us with the means to reach The Good.
Presumably both. Thus "The Good" in version b) becomes our Saligheds Sag, our salvation, which we cannot reach on our own, but only after God has made us ready for it.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to make work the link to that discussion you mentioned, and therefore I don't understand what exactly you mean by "funeral interpretation".
In the text about baptisms in Copenhagen, "saligheds sag" seems to be used in a rather figurative sense: To the priests the re-augmentation of batisms is a task of such great importance that even salvation (their own and maybe also that of those to be baptised?) depends on it.

Blue Skies,
Tigrette

cybershark5886 · 10-17-2006, 01:19 AM

Sorry the link doesn't work for you, it does for me....weird.

But here is what that site says:

Message Board Post:

"Jeg var self paa Bøe, betiente der alteret, saa og [betiente] broder her Isaac og kieriste i deris saligheds sag, saa og døbte der ett barn der blef kaldett Ingebor."

I haven't got the church records for Saude so I can't look up the original text. However, I have read enough church record entries of the same time and area that I'm reasonably certain about the meaning of this text.

The term "Broder Herr Isaach" must mean that Isaach was the fellow vicar of the neighbouring parish Bø. "Kieriste" is often used for the wife of a high-standing person. "deris salighed" means that they are deceased, and "deris saligheds sag" appears to be their last rites as well as their funeral sermon. "betiente" in the first part also refers to this service, as I have suggested by including the word in square braces in the second part. The child named Ingeborg may ot may not have been their daughter, the operative thing here being that the writer has performed the christening of the child.

Here's a somewhat tentative translation:

"I was myself at Bøe, serviced at the altar, also serviced at Brother Master Isach's and his beloved's funeral sermon, also christened a child who was named Ingeborg."

It appears that Master Isach as well as his wife have been ill for a while, and the vicar writing this entry has been servicing in his stead, and finally serviced at their funeral. The reason for writing this down is of course that he expects a fee for those extra services.

regards, Leif.

10-04-2006, 03:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
cybershark5886 Growing Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 12 cybershark5886 is an unknown character at this point	Oh, I'm sorry, did you mean me to check these two sentences? In any case, this is what I'd make of them... No those weren't the sentances I was talking about, but thank you! That helps. I apologize for not posting what I meant yet, but the text in question is at my grandmothers house. I hope to get it this weekend. Our family is of Norwegian ancestory (we now live in Alabama, USA) and we have a valuable family heirloom (a book) that is a Norwegian Christian text book. The date at the back of it says 1758 (and it looks the part)! And since it is so old it falls under a period when Norway's written language was Danish, so it's a Norwegian text written in Danish (I think historians call this Dano-Norwegian). I'm trying to continue on our family heritige and culture a bit by attempting to learn the Norwegian and Danish languages so that I can translate the book. I plan to make scans of the pages eventually. From what I can tell the book is divided into what seems like daily sermons, and appears to be the work of an educated Theologian and Scholar. I wish I could find the authors name, surely he is recorded in history books for such a literary work. At any rate, I'll try to get the text soon. Sorry for any delay. Oh and that interpretation of it meaning "sacred mission" seems to fit the context well does it not? [I guess your text said "den korsfæstede" ?] It's interesting that you point this out because in the text it really was a "G". In the archaic Dano-Norwegian text that I will copy a few lines of here (when I get to the book) you will possibly see a "transposition" of letters like that, because of the word's older/archaic form. Sincerely, Josh Last edited by cybershark5886; 10-04-2006 at 03:51 PM.
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10-04-2006, 04:43 PM	#9 (permalink)
La Tigrette Growing Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Deutschland Posts: 41 La Tigrette is an unknown character at this point	Hi Josh, As a former student of Scandinavian studies, your family history sounds particularly interesting to me. Especially, since I attended classes on Norwegian litterature and Old Norse during the last semester. I'm really looking forward to you posting that text, and I hope I'll be able to help you translating it, in spite of my ignorance of religious vocabulary. Blue Skies, Tigrette __________________ Sei in jungen Jahren weise: Reise... reise! --- Paix! Joie! Amour! Fleurs!
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10-09-2006, 05:23 PM	#11 (permalink)
cybershark5886 Growing Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 12 cybershark5886 is an unknown character at this point	Hey, Sorry again for the delay. My grandmother took a picture of the first page, and I can e-mail the .jpg file to you if you would like to look at it. Before I type the words here though I found a possible secondary meaning in an alternate context. At this site: (RootsWeb: NOR-TELEMARK-L Re: translation please: deris salighedt sag) this person interprets it as a funeral service. At the URL (Selands-Slekta FILE: ss 09.htm) right below the "Page 70" mark where it says "da hjemhente præsten til hendes saligheds sags betjening ligesom efter døden bekoste". Betjening I think means "service" - perhaps a church service. Does that fit in with a "funeral" interpretation? But before I get too far off on that interpretation here is a Danish word-reference entry for salig & saligheds: salig adj blessed; (lyksalig) blissful; (beruset) exhilarated; [salig fryd] bliss; [blive salig] (religiøst) be saved; [min salig mand] (glds) my poor husband. saliggørelse (en) salvation. saliggørende adj saving; [det er det eneste saliggørende] it is absolutely the only thing. salighed (en) salvation; (lykke) bliss; (beruselse) exhilaration; [nej min salighed om jeg gør] I'll be hanged if I do; [saligheds ed] (Bible) oath ( fx I will take my Bible oath on that). On this PDF ( http://www.kirkenikobenhavn.dk/uploa...20saligheds%22 ) I got a little bit closer to someone actually telling me what the word means, but since I'm I only know 50 Norsk/Dansk words I couldn't interpret the context. The text said at the end of a paragraph: Det er, hvad de gamle kaldte, en saligheds sag. (It is, what old folk called, a saligheds sag) If you can interpret the context tell me. ------------------------------------------------------- Now (finally) here is the first few words from the text: En liden Bøn, som Eenhver kand læse for sig selv, før han begynder at læse eller høre Prædiken, som paaminder os om vor egen Uduelighed i vor Saligheds Sag: og om Guds store Magt, til at giøre os duelige til alt Godt. Note for when you see the picture: I's can be sustituted for J's (for example giøre above would be modern gjøre), lowercase S's are the archaic 'f' shaped letter, lowercase K's look like an 'f' with a dot over the right cross section (kand above looked more like fand), and capital S's almost look like capital G's. K was the hardest one for me to figure out. My translation of the text so far: A little prayer, which each can read for one's self, before he begins to read or hear the message [exhortation], which reminds us of our own inaptitude [innability] in our Saligheds Sag: and God's big [Magesty?], to..... *Following that paragraph is the introductory prayer before the author begins his Scholarly expository work. You will be able to see it in the picture. Whoever would like the image (actually there are 2 images - top & bottom) please give me your e-mail address. It's exciting to look at because it just looks so old... Last edited by cybershark5886; 10-09-2006 at 06:00 PM.*
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10-09-2006, 07:27 PM	#12 (permalink)
thstich Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: denmark Posts: 156 thstich is learning to walk	i would translate "læse eller høre Prædiken" by "to read or hear the preach" ... Gud stor magt : God's great power, which makes us good at, "doing good".
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10-13-2006, 10:44 PM	#13 (permalink)
La Tigrette Growing Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Deutschland Posts: 41 La Tigrette is an unknown character at this point	Hi cybershark 5886, Apart from a few words my translation agrees with yours, only I'd make "the sermon" of "Prædiken" and "our own incapability" of "vor egen Uduelighed". The final part seems a bit tricky to me, too. Literally, "...og om Guds store Magt, til at giøre os duelige til alt Godt." means "...and of God's great power to make us capable of all Good." but I can't tell if this means that a) God enables us to do good and be good or b) God provides us with the means to reach The Good. Presumably both. Thus "The Good" in version b) becomes our Saligheds Sag, our salvation, which we cannot reach on our own, but only after God has made us ready for it. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to make work the link to that discussion you mentioned, and therefore I don't understand what exactly you mean by "funeral interpretation". In the text about baptisms in Copenhagen, "saligheds sag" seems to be used in a rather figurative sense: To the priests the re-augmentation of batisms is a task of such great importance that even salvation (their own and maybe also that of those to be baptised?) depends on it. Blue Skies, Tigrette __________________ Sei in jungen Jahren weise: Reise... reise! --- Paix! Joie! Amour! Fleurs!
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10-17-2006, 01:19 AM	#14 (permalink)
cybershark5886 Growing Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 12 cybershark5886 is an unknown character at this point	Sorry the link doesn't work for you, it does for me....weird. But here is what that site says: Message Board Post: "Jeg var self paa Bøe, betiente der alteret, saa og [betiente] broder her Isaac og kieriste i deris saligheds sag, saa og døbte der ett barn der blef kaldett Ingebor." I haven't got the church records for Saude so I can't look up the original text. However, I have read enough church record entries of the same time and area that I'm reasonably certain about the meaning of this text. The term "Broder Herr Isaach" must mean that Isaach was the fellow vicar of the neighbouring parish Bø. "Kieriste" is often used for the wife of a high-standing person. "deris salighed" means that they are deceased, and "deris saligheds sag" appears to be their last rites as well as their funeral sermon. "betiente" in the first part also refers to this service, as I have suggested by including the word in square braces in the second part. The child named Ingeborg may ot may not have been their daughter, the operative thing here being that the writer has performed the christening of the child. Here's a somewhat tentative translation: "I was myself at Bøe, serviced at the altar, also serviced at Brother Master Isach's and his beloved's funeral sermon, also christened a child who was named Ingeborg." It appears that Master Isach as well as his wife have been ill for a while, and the vicar writing this entry has been servicing in his stead, and finally serviced at their funeral. The reason for writing this down is of course that he expects a fee for those extra services. regards, Leif.
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