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Old 10-10-2016, 04:22 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Ok guys, thx a lot for answers and interesting.. Ill let u know now all i found out, and lets try some conclusion..

1st i asked some guy whos speaking hebrew his translation was :

1st line- word + XX - he translated it as word = yoval/yohal, and XX he said he doesnt know
2nd line - date
3rd line - he translated as : Handoar'kar, and said there r 2 words second he said its some name he cant translate
4th line - translated as : shirts.

Translation from your forums:

1st line : XX word: u translated as XX anniversary / Jubilee
2nd : date
3rd line - 1st word unkown, second : care / secodnd translation : 1st word - merchant, second word : Turn Signal ?? Did i get it right ??
4th line: u also translated as Shirts

And i also got 3rd translation from Polish/Hebrew forum i asked for help.

1st line : XX Anniversary, the same as here is your forum
2nd line - date
3rd line : they translated it as : Handwerker/handworker what makes sens, and is pretty close to translation from the guy i asked 1st, his translation was : Handoar;kar
4th line: They got problem with translation, they got few options, but only one got any meaning which is Shrphen..

Ok so we got some translations and options, some fits each other some doesnt. My conclusion is :

1st line : XX anniversary / Jubilee
2nd line : date
3rd line : Handworker + if there is second word it would be name/company name
4th line : it would be Shirts as i got 2 translations with shirts here and in polish forum they r not sureand Shirts is quite close to Sharpen.

So in the end, the picture on the item, could be a clothier not a barber shop. While we r trying to identify it, we got few options - Clothier, Barber shop, shaver shop, or there was a guy sharpening barber items too as they said in polish/hebrew forum.


Any ideas if i might be close ?

Last edited by jedliq; 10-10-2016 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 10-10-2016, 05:36 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedliq View Post
1st i asked some guy whos speaking hebrew his translation was :
1st line- word + XX - he translated it as word = yoval/yohal, and XX he said he doesnt know
Hebrew and Yiddish are different. Why don't you trust alexa57 and me, in particular when I had given you pages you could look at to make sure I didn't guess? I wrote יובל (yoyvl) Jubilee and put the link to the Yiddish Dictionary Online below so you could look it up yourself. I have studied Latin but many people who haven't done this have seen Roman numbers on monuments and know their meanings anyway. XX is Latin for 20. I'm sure you have seen I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX X (1 - 10) before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedliq View Post
2nd line - date 3rd line - he translated as : Handoar'kar, and said there r 2 words second he said its some name he cant translate
1918–1938 is of course the period from 1918 to 1938, too obvious to write down. קער (ker) turn/turning movement (2nd word, yes), הענדלער (hendler) merchant (1st word, yes).

I gave you another example with "ker" from a book (you also could have looked at) just to prove its meaning of "turn" but obviously that just confused you.

שנייַדער shnayder is the Yiddish word for tailor so that word doesn't fit.
https://yiddishsong.wordpress.com/tag/tailor/
In bin ikh dokh nor a shnayder = and I am only just a tailor
can be found on that page if you bother to look at it.

I agree with alexa57 that there's a symbol of scissors (and a hammer). When I write "scissors and a hammer symbol" in Google's search field Google gives me Carving:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carving

By the way, שערער (sherer) is the Yiddish word for a barber.

Last edited by Cloelia; 10-10-2016 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 10-10-2016, 07:54 PM   #10 (permalink)
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It is not that i dont trust somebody or anything.. We are just trying to identify old item. All i do is gather informations from few sources then compare them, check them etc etc. I just gave u what ppl said in other places, also i did put your translations on the polish forum to compare and check what they say.

Ofc i know what XX means while i come from Poland, thats why Joval/Johal had no sens at all. I needed better translation, had Anniversary, but u made it even better with Jubilee.

But still, we are looking for overall meaning. So it is not your translation made me confused. Only connection of Merchant + Turn. It makes no sense, or maybe its about turning something into something as hes job ?

And the last word, if it is not Shirts, and is surname( might be company name ? ) , is it possible to translate it into any language ? Or i should be looking for the surname written as it is now ? When i put - שערפץ in google gives me 60 hits, but no idea how to understand all of this.. Would take me ages to translate . Anyway the surname/company name is probably the most important information to look for some history of this item.

Last edited by jedliq; 10-10-2016 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 10-12-2016, 09:37 PM   #11 (permalink)
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hmm... Cloelia, i see your point.. but, i don't think you got the letters correctly for the second word.. i don't see "lamed" in it...
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Old 10-13-2016, 12:56 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Yes, you are right alexa57. There is no lamed in what you wrote.

And jedliq. I blamed you for not reading my message thoroughly and at the same time I myself read your message carelessly. It contained in fact the solution to the mysterious ה נדווער קער .
The missing letter is א and it's just one word, that is no space before קער. The word is
האנדווערקער, that is Handwerker, meaning craftsman or artisan in German (which I know) as well as in Yiddish (which I wish I knew better).

See here for example:
https://www.facebook.com/Yiddish.Sht...981181/?type=3

Another reference is https://tinyurl.com/zrdt7ja
"Handwerker means craftsman in German, Dutch, and Yiddish."

As far as שערפץ (Sherfts) is concerned I cannot find it as a name. I have only found שרף transliterated to Sherf or Scharf in hebrew and also written שערף in Yiddish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze%27ev_Sherf
http://www.museumoffamilyhistory.com.../sherf-iza.htm

However I will keep on searching.

Wikipedia about Yiddish grammar: Yiddish does not have a genitive case, and when referencing a human or occasionally other living beings, possession is indicated with a suffixed ס- -s (like English possessive -'s). [Other forms of possession are normally indicated by the preposition פֿון fun 'of'.]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_grammar
Perhaps Sherf's is said Sherfts and then ץ (ts) would be a possessive -'(t)s but why put "belonging to Sherf" as the last word?

jedliq, since Google gave you 60 (!) hits of שערפץ it would be interesting to see where they were. A couple of links could perhaps be given.
I found it myself on page 22 here
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/he/educa.../magazine9.pdf
M.10/AR.1–1038 עדות של יהודי משרפץ, איו"ש,
מינכן 1947, עמ' 14-15; על פי עדויותיהם
שערפץ 1939-1945

Last edited by Cloelia; 10-14-2016 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 10-15-2016, 03:53 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloelia View Post
As far as שערפץ (Sherfts) is concerned I cannot find it as a name. I have only found שרף transliterated to Sherf or Scharf in hebrew and also written שערף in Yiddish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze%27ev_Sherf
sherf-iza[...]jedliq, since Google gave you 60 (!) hits of שערפץ it would be interesting to see where they were. A couple of links could perhaps be given.
I found it myself on page 22 here
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/he/educa.../magazine9.pdf
M.10/AR.1–1038 עדות של יהודי משרפץ, איו"ש,
מינכן 1947, עמ' 14-15; על פי עדויותיהם
שערפץ 1939-1945
שערפץ in Yiddish written שרפץ in Hebrew is the Polish town Sierpc [ɕerpt͡s]
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/שרפץ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierpc

שערפץ (Sierpc)was a שטעטל‎, a "shtetl", that is a "small town with large Jewish populations, which existed in Central and Eastern Europe before the Holocaust" :
The testimony of P.K. briefly mentions the ghetto in Sierpc, and says: “At this moment, there is not even one Jew left in Sierpc, because half of them died, and half were sent to Stezhgovo.”
Sierpc, Poland (Pages 519-536)

M.10/AR.1–1038 עדות של יהודי משרפץ, איו"ש, A Jew's testimony from Sierpc, Ayosh
איו"ש (Ayosh) is an acronym for the area C of the West Bank, אזור יהודה ושומרון Ezor Yehuda VeShomron, meaning Judea and Samaria Area.

מינכן 1947, עמ' 14-15; על פי עדויותיהם According to their testimony, pp. 14-15, Munich (München) 1947

שערפץ 1939-1945 means 1939-1945 Sierpc (Sherpts)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtetl

Last edited by Cloelia; 10-16-2016 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 10-22-2016, 03:44 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Im sorry for so late response, working 12h/6 days a week and got no time for PC at evenings :/

Cloelia, offcourse i do read the links u give me, all of them.. But mostly i get no point from them as that language just breaks my head.. Was trying to use your Yiddish dictionary but couldnt get any translation.. Each time smth was wrong.. All those links u givin me is a proper mess for me .. Cant use those links, i click it and turn off as i even got no idea from which side to look at them..

For example - ht tp s://w w w
.facebook.com/Yiddish.Shtetl.Culture/photos/a.369924073087723.88170.355062417907222/547656141981181/?type=3 - no idea what im looking at .. And there was few more i just click them and turn off after second as i got no idea what i could do with ur links :/ maybe for you it is easy and u know what ur doind but i dont, and really some of those links u put here is a black magic for me :D So no offence, u are helping a lot, but really those links says nothing to me.. Pls dont be angry :/

Anyway i see u done it finally Sierpc looks as proper translation and fits to everything now. As u gave me Sierpc Wiki, its right about Jewish population etc etc. Ill do my homework now and will look for some more info. Now i can look as i got it translated, before with your links it was really hard becouse as i said before most of them was black magic for me

So we got final translation of the item:

XX Jubilee
1918-1939
Handwerker ( as i got it right from what u said its no more turn here and merchant only 1 word Handwerker right ? )
Sierpc

Am i right here or i got it wrong again and didnt understand your explanations right way ?

I also wonder why it is translated into Handwerker.. its like u said in german . Sierpc is a Polish town, in the middle of Poland. The name u gave me is proper polish translation of it and Sierpc exists till now. So little mixed here, but what im thinking is, those jewish had to use german language during the war, they used it for the writing only the name of town they used in original polish translation, or it was the same one i german language. ( Ill have to look in a bit for german names of the town during 1918-1938 )..

Hmm i think thats it, nothing more to do here isnt it ? Thank you very much for your time u spent here doing all this. Really appriciate it U are the only one who translated it.

Also u have asked about שערפץ to put links which google gives me.. It is 67 of them now : htt ps ://w w w
.google.pl/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%A4%D7%A5

Well, thank you again, going to read and search and find some more info of all i got now thanks to you.
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